The Angry Drunk

Of course. To a freetard freedom is the right to play by their rules.

Amen brother, amen.

The really funny part is this: "With that change, I think I'd be pretty happy to let the Apple Software Update service back on my Windows machine."

That makes it personal. Instead of "Windows users are so fucking confused by a checkbox that they can’t be trusted with the horrible responsibility of installing a browser," it becomes "I, Aza, am so fucking confused by a checkbox that I can’t be trusted with the horrible responsibility of installing a browser."

Nope, not at all. The principle is simple, it's like when you sign up at a website - the "receive our weekly newsletter" checkbox should be unchecked by default (it often isn't but it should be). People shouldn't be tricked (or defaulted) into receiving optional stuff (software, email, etc.) they don't want or require. If they want it they can check the box and make a hopefully informed choice to accept it.

After reading a lot of the comments floating around the interweb, I have come to the conclusion that the real issue is there should be no check boxes whatsoever, anywhere. According to the Windows users on the forums, everybody just clicks through screens without spending the time to digest what exactly it is they are updating or installing.

So I think Apple should revise the Software Update again, but this time it should just be a window with a big progress indicator and no words except "Done" when everything has finished installing. If they want to include an advanced view that lists what is going to be installed they should hide it in the menus where no average Windows users can stumble on its confusing nature.

This issue of "To be checked, or not checked." is really a moot issue. What Apple defines as "new and separate" and "just an upgrade" is up to Apple. If you don't like it, get a refund.

This amuses the heck out of me. I can see Asa's point, it probably shouldn't be defaulty checked. However, it's not the end of the world and considering what Apple already did, I'd say that's more than what most companies would do.

However, if you want to get nit picky, we could walk thru Firefox and see where things are defaulted to checked...cause apparently they don't trust me to make such choices as "Always checking to see if Firefox is the default browser on startup".

Evil? perhaps :D

Oh,...cause your "angry", I get it now.

@Adam
Reading Asa's post, he's definatly not treating it like it's the end of the world either.

I actually agree with Asa. The thing is called "Software Update", so you expect it to update your software in default mode. Can do other things if you ask it, but in default mode, it shouldn't mess with your system and install other things.

David S.

Nope, not at all. The principle is simple, it’s like when you sign up at a website - the “receive our weekly newsletter” checkbox should be unchecked by default (it often isn’t but it should be). People shouldn’t be tricked (or defaulted) into receiving optional stuff (software, email, etc.) they don’t want or require. If they want it they can check the box and make a hopefully informed choice to accept it.

So you agree that, as other's have pointed out, the checkbox to always check if FireFox is the default browser, is "tricking" users. Because I sure as hell have seen users bounce back and forth between IE and FF, selecting each as the default every time one launches.

It has been seriously hilarious watching the Firefox guys the last several months. From the embarrassed reaction to revelations of how much the "free browser company" makes from Google each year (A LOT), to the "Acid3 is useless now that we can't meet it, besides, we are busy with Firefox 3 ", and now this whole snit about an Apple browser's checkbox on Windows machines...its great entertainment!

Note also that when loading Firefox (or any other browser, for that matter) blindly clicking through the dialogue boxes that pop up results in Firefox being set as the default browser! Perhaps we should demand that Mozilla remove this dialogue box immediately, lest someone not know how to click the 'no' button.

I fail to see what about Asa's post is worth such poisoned outrage.

Joel:

The Angry Drunk is both inebriated and choleric.

Duh.

He's also right on!!!

Don't you think the whole default browser question is slightly smaller in scope than installing an application which may or may not affect the performance or security of your machine?

The real question: what does the user *intends* to do. When opening a browser that must be downloaded from the Internet to install, I think it's pretty safe to assume that the user also wants that browser as their default.

Look me in the eye and tell me that, by updating QuickTime or iTunes, the user also *intends* to install a Web Browser.

I'm as big a fanboi as the next, but Apple's wrong here.

Apple's behaving like a real fucking pusher here. Funny how the very drunk defending this practice also had a go at Mozilla for not competing on merit. Blatantly, shoving a browser down people's throats isn't exactly competing on merit. I may be a Mac/Safari user, but I'm not a sycophant. Apple's wrong here.

You all realize that this isn't Apple trying to pull some grand conspiracy to make Safari everyone's default browser, right? I

I agree with Asa Dotzler, Apple needs to stop checking Safari's box on Software Update, if the box is checked you can inadvertently download Safari along with the QuickTime or iTunes update du jour. A large percentage of people will just click the Install button without noticing, because they trust Software Update. And the name is pretty much self-explanatory, it's supposed to update previously installed software. Now, to avoid downloading new software you don't want, you have to remember to uncheck the darn box. Every goddamn time. Of course you can click on the Tools menu to ignore the selected update but the solution is not that straightforward. I happen to know the trick because I use a Mac, Windows users are not supposed to know the ins and outs of Software Update. The update mechanism should be straightforward and worthy of their trust.

“So you agree that, as other’s have pointed out, the checkbox to always check if FireFox is the default browser, is “tricking” users.”

If you want to use Firefox as your default browser, the “Always checking to see if Firefox is the default browser on startup” thingy won't be an annoyance.

If Safari is your default browser, and you happen to launch Firefox, it will pester you (“hey, how come I'm not the default browser?”). Most likely it will happen just once, you are presented with a dialogue, you can uncheck the box and click yes/no. I don't see this as a problem, Firefox is not tricking users, it's easy to avoid and no new software is installed without the user's consent taking advantage of a moment's inattention.

Considering the way Windows deals with the "default browser", that's actually a pretty major issue.

However, it is hypocritical in the extreme for Asa to point fingers at Apple when they pull the same kind of shit. Firefox's default is to suck all the personal data out of IE.

Why do I now HAVE to install Firefox's crash reporter? It's not part of Firefox, and I hate the fucking thing, it means that FF crashes take longer to recover from. How is that okay, especially in its current completely invisible form, when Apple's now clearly-marked install of Safari isn't?

I guess Asa will make this all clear, as to why their "opt-out" is okay, and Apple's isn't.

telos:

Apple’s behaving like a real fucking pusher here.

Wait, what? Did you just actually compare Apple with a drug dealer? I thought the "malware" line was retarded, but that takes the fucking cake. What's next, "Steve Jobs imports Peruvian sex slaves." Well, to be fair, that one is true; but you didn't hear it from me.

Sorry, hit enter prematurely there.

As I was saying, Apple's not "in the wrong" here because they probably didn't even realize this would be an issue.

I doubt it ever occurred to them to put Safari in its own category. Likewise, I doubt it occurred to them to uncheck it by default, because, unless my updater is broken, *everything* is checked by default.

Also, you should learn to fucking read before you click on something.

But hey, that's just me. I think stupid people should be killed, and I think that while, yes, it's probably the "right thing to do" to make it unchecked by default, I also think anyone who bitches about it extensively is, in fact, stupid.

As a UI Designer, I can assure you that Windows (and Mac, for that matter) users are indeed so fucking confused by checkboxes that they can't be trusted to figure out that they have to uncheck a by-default checked box to not get Safari. Apple, of course, knows this, which is why the box is checked.

Here's how it goes. I downloaded a product by a particular company. That I use once in a blue moon to watch videos on the web. For that I get a big pop-up in the middle of my screen asking me to download 2 pieces of software I don't want at all, and maybe an update for that particular program. To get the update to my program I actually have to uncheck boxes to avoid installing two massive programs that may alter how my system functions (a different media player comes up when I play media, and a different web browser comes up when I open an HTML file). The fact I don't like this makes me confused in some way? What else do Apple fan boys put up with?

I have never once had the updater open without me clicking on it, and I use iTunes and Quicktime with regularity. Maybe my updater is out of date, Iunno, but that's never happened for me.

Andrew, you mean Apple makes you UNCHECK A FUCKING BOX??!!!!111

OMGWTFKHAAAAN!!