In response to the whiny fucknuts who pissed an moaned over Apple serving up a side of Safari along with the latest iTunes update on Windows (see my rant here), Apple updated their Software Update client for Windows to distinguish between “new” and “updated” software. So, there you go, Apple bows to the community and everybody wins.
Apparently, not if your Asa Dotzler. If you’re Asa, then Apple doing the very gods damned thing that you asked for is not good enough. Apparently Apple needs to also not check the box to install Safari by default. Again, the take home message here is that Windows users are so fucking confused by a checkbox that they can’t be trusted with the horrible responsibility of installing a browser. What’s next Asa, do I need a note from my mommy to assure that I weally weally wanted to install Safari. You know, for a bunch of people who expound on the virtues of “choice,” freetards sure do seem to have an issue with users making the choice to use something that isn’t theirs.
Here’s a suggestion for you Asa. When a someone with a vested interest in the success of a competing browser insists on continuing to beat Apple up over the most trivial issue in the fucking world, it sort of reeks of desperation. Here’s another suggestion. Why don’t you focus on making FireFox the better browser and, oh I don’t know, compete on merit?
Of course. To a freetard freedom is the right to play by their rules.
Amen brother, amen.
The really funny part is this: “With that change, I think I’d be pretty happy to let the Apple Software Update service back on my Windows machine.”
That makes it personal. Instead of “Windows users are so fucking confused by a checkbox that they can’t be trusted with the horrible responsibility of installing a browser,” it becomes “I, Aza, am so fucking confused by a checkbox that I can’t be trusted with the horrible responsibility of installing a browser.”
Nope, not at all. The principle is simple, it’s like when you sign up at a website – the “receive our weekly newsletter” checkbox should be unchecked by default (it often isn’t but it should be). People shouldn’t be tricked (or defaulted) into receiving optional stuff (software, email, etc.) they don’t want or require. If they want it they can check the box and make a hopefully informed choice to accept it.
After reading a lot of the comments floating around the interweb, I have come to the conclusion that the real issue is there should be no check boxes whatsoever, anywhere. According to the Windows users on the forums, everybody just clicks through screens without spending the time to digest what exactly it is they are updating or installing.
So I think Apple should revise the Software Update again, but this time it should just be a window with a big progress indicator and no words except “Done” when everything has finished installing. If they want to include an advanced view that lists what is going to be installed they should hide it in the menus where no average Windows users can stumble on its confusing nature.
This issue of “To be checked, or not checked.” is really a moot issue. What Apple defines as “new and separate” and “just an upgrade” is up to Apple. If you don’t like it, get a refund.
This amuses the heck out of me. I can see Asa’s point, it probably shouldn’t be defaulty checked. However, it’s not the end of the world and considering what Apple already did, I’d say that’s more than what most companies would do.
However, if you want to get nit picky, we could walk thru Firefox and see where things are defaulted to checked…cause apparently they don’t trust me to make such choices as “Always checking to see if Firefox is the default browser on startup”.
Evil? perhaps
Oh,…cause your “angry”, I get it now.
@Adam
Reading Asa’s post, he’s definatly not treating it like it’s the end of the world either.
I actually agree with Asa. The thing is called “Software Update”, so you expect it to update your software in default mode. Can do other things if you ask it, but in default mode, it shouldn’t mess with your system and install other things.
David S.
So you agree that, as other’s have pointed out, the checkbox to always check if FireFox is the default browser, is “tricking” users. Because I sure as hell have seen users bounce back and forth between IE and FF, selecting each as the default every time one launches.
It has been seriously hilarious watching the Firefox guys the last several months. From the embarrassed reaction to revelations of how much the “free browser company” makes from Google each year (A LOT), to the “Acid3 is useless now that we can’t meet it, besides, we are busy with Firefox 3 “, and now this whole snit about an Apple browser’s checkbox on Windows machines…its great entertainment!
Note also that when loading Firefox (or any other browser, for that matter) blindly clicking through the dialogue boxes that pop up results in Firefox being set as the default browser! Perhaps we should demand that Mozilla remove this dialogue box immediately, lest someone not know how to click the ‘no’ button.
I fail to see what about Asa’s post is worth such poisoned outrage.
Joel:
The Angry Drunk is both inebriated and choleric.
Duh.
He’s also right on!!!
Don’t you think the whole default browser question is slightly smaller in scope than installing an application which may or may not affect the performance or security of your machine?
The real question: what does the user *intends* to do. When opening a browser that must be downloaded from the Internet to install, I think it’s pretty safe to assume that the user also wants that browser as their default.
Look me in the eye and tell me that, by updating QuickTime or iTunes, the user also *intends* to install a Web Browser.
I’m as big a fanboi as the next, but Apple’s wrong here.
Apple’s behaving like a real fucking pusher here. Funny how the very drunk defending this practice also had a go at Mozilla for not competing on merit. Blatantly, shoving a browser down people’s throats isn’t exactly competing on merit. I may be a Mac/Safari user, but I’m not a sycophant. Apple’s wrong here.
You all realize that this isn’t Apple trying to pull some grand conspiracy to make Safari everyone’s default browser, right? I
I agree with Asa Dotzler, Apple needs to stop checking Safari’s box on Software Update, if the box is checked you can inadvertently download Safari along with the QuickTime or iTunes update du jour. A large percentage of people will just click the Install button without noticing, because they trust Software Update. And the name is pretty much self-explanatory, it’s supposed to update previously installed software. Now, to avoid downloading new software you don’t want, you have to remember to uncheck the darn box. Every goddamn time. Of course you can click on the Tools menu to ignore the selected update but the solution is not that straightforward. I happen to know the trick because I use a Mac, Windows users are not supposed to know the ins and outs of Software Update. The update mechanism should be straightforward and worthy of their trust.
“So you agree that, as other’s have pointed out, the checkbox to always check if FireFox is the default browser, is “tricking” users.”
If you want to use Firefox as your default browser, the “Always checking to see if Firefox is the default browser on startup” thingy won’t be an annoyance.
If Safari is your default browser, and you happen to launch Firefox, it will pester you (“hey, how come I’m not the default browser?”). Most likely it will happen just once, you are presented with a dialogue, you can uncheck the box and click yes/no. I don’t see this as a problem, Firefox is not tricking users, it’s easy to avoid and no new software is installed without the user’s consent taking advantage of a moment’s inattention.
Considering the way Windows deals with the “default browser”, that’s actually a pretty major issue.
However, it is hypocritical in the extreme for Asa to point fingers at Apple when they pull the same kind of shit. Firefox’s default is to suck all the personal data out of IE.
Why do I now HAVE to install Firefox’s crash reporter? It’s not part of Firefox, and I hate the fucking thing, it means that FF crashes take longer to recover from. How is that okay, especially in its current completely invisible form, when Apple’s now clearly-marked install of Safari isn’t?
I guess Asa will make this all clear, as to why their “opt-out” is okay, and Apple’s isn’t.
telos:
Wait, what? Did you just actually compare Apple with a drug dealer? I thought the “malware” line was retarded, but that takes the fucking cake. What’s next, “Steve Jobs imports Peruvian sex slaves.” Well, to be fair, that one is true; but you didn’t hear it from me.
Sorry, hit enter prematurely there.
As I was saying, Apple’s not “in the wrong” here because they probably didn’t even realize this would be an issue.
I doubt it ever occurred to them to put Safari in its own category. Likewise, I doubt it occurred to them to uncheck it by default, because, unless my updater is broken, *everything* is checked by default.
Also, you should learn to fucking read before you click on something.
But hey, that’s just me. I think stupid people should be killed, and I think that while, yes, it’s probably the “right thing to do” to make it unchecked by default, I also think anyone who bitches about it extensively is, in fact, stupid.
As a UI Designer, I can assure you that Windows (and Mac, for that matter) users are indeed so fucking confused by checkboxes that they can’t be trusted to figure out that they have to uncheck a by-default checked box to not get Safari. Apple, of course, knows this, which is why the box is checked.
Here’s how it goes. I downloaded a product by a particular company. That I use once in a blue moon to watch videos on the web. For that I get a big pop-up in the middle of my screen asking me to download 2 pieces of software I don’t want at all, and maybe an update for that particular program. To get the update to my program I actually have to uncheck boxes to avoid installing two massive programs that may alter how my system functions (a different media player comes up when I play media, and a different web browser comes up when I open an HTML file). The fact I don’t like this makes me confused in some way? What else do Apple fan boys put up with?
I have never once had the updater open without me clicking on it, and I use iTunes and Quicktime with regularity. Maybe my updater is out of date, Iunno, but that’s never happened for me.
Andrew, you mean Apple makes you UNCHECK A FUCKING BOX??!!!!111
OMGWTFKHAAAAN!!
See, what I think 99% of the mitchers and boners on the net don’t get, is that iTunes is built on Webkit… The majority of what makes Safari work is ALREADY ON THEIR PC IF THEY HAVE iTUNES!!!!!
Apple’s doing nothing wrong here… Some people just seem to have WAY too much fsckin time on their hands.
not a fanboi.. just someone that values common sense and sees very little in this idiotic argument…
drunkard:
Well yes. The fact that there are huge differences between Apple and drug dealers doesn’t preclude the two from having points of similarity. In this case, Apple is forcefully and rather unpleasantly trying to get people to use its products. Sort of like a drug dealer harassing someone to buy gear. Far from being “retarded”, I think my comment was rather apt.
You’re an idiot.
Just saying.
lkm,
Seeing as how you argue that .dmg drag installs are broken, your opinion is essentially worthless. You’re dead to me.
@26justme iTunes is based on WebKit now? It never used to be.
But I agree that this is a non-issue. It isn’t like Safari, say, automatically runs after installing, imports all your data from Internet Explorer, changes your home page and sets itself as you preferred browser by default. That would just be uncouth.
(Yes, a fresh install of Firefox just did all of those things.)
@The Angry Drunk
No, not at all. Without touching the checkbox, you can choose “No, but ask me next time” or “Yes, and ask me if it changes”. The other options are “No, and never ask me again” (in which case, most people would want to uninstall the program) and “Yes, but I don’t care if it changes” (which doesn’t make much sense).
The choice is presented on its own. It has nothing to do with updates to Firefox, much less other programs. And “no, stop asking” is an option.
Also, they’re following convention, at least on Windows. Like you pointed out, IE presents basically the same dialog. So does pretty much every other web browser, mail program, etc.
Would you really think it was OK for Firefox to default to installing Thunderbird at every update? Would you want Adobe, Microsoft, Sun, etc. all to do the same thing with their products?
I’d be OK, yeah, as long as I could deselect it. Which, oh my god!, I can do here! It’s like I’m not stupid or something!
@Ken Pierson
Actually, if, during the Firefox install it popped up a dialog asking if I wanted to install Thunderbird, with the box checked; I would uncheck it and get on with my life. But then again, I’m not a whiny twat.
@The Angry Drunk:
Not the install, every single update. And not just Firefox, every program by anyone with more than one product.
Personally, I like it when updates are updates and I don’t have to scrutinize them. But that’s me.
Didn’t anyone think about checking the “Ignore update” button? Never see the evil Safari again. How come there is no cheese served with all this whine?
There is nothing malicious about Apple’s decision here. It is simply part of the modern corporate culture to make assumptions in favor of the corporation and require the individual to expend effort if they wish things to be otherwise.
detritus make an important point about trust. In this current climate of needing to regular install security update to software, we need the average user to trust Apple, Microsoft etc. and install updates when they are released. If some one runs software update and as a result ends up with some new piece of software installed on their computer, that they did not want, next time software update pops up they may just hit “cancel” and miss an important security update.
90% of the nerd rage on this issue would turn to vapor if the Windows uers complaining would admit that it’s mostly because they see Apple as “the enemy”. It’s anti-fanboyism at it’s worst.
Or, they could just note that the application is “Apple Software Update”, not “iTunes Update”. If you don’t want other Apple software, then don’t fucking run Apple Software Update.
“Apple is forcefully and rather unpleasantly trying to get people to use its products. Sort of like a drug dealer harassing someone to buy gear. ”
DRUG DEALERS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. They sell you what you fucking ask for. Also, I don’t know what “gear” is. I don’t think drug dealers even sell “gear.” Usually, someone goes to a drug dealer for marijuana or cocaine, but goes to the mall if they want a new pair of skis.
@Percent
Bing Bing Motherfucking Bing. Percent wins the gods damn prize. To expand, for any of you fuckers who thinks that I actually care one way or another what Apple, or Mozilla, or Microsoft for that matter does with their software updates; listen carefully, I don’t.
What does get my bile up is the breathless rush to bang out an anti-Apple or anti-fucking-anybody blog post just to show your ant-whoever-the-fuck cred.
One of the most annoying aspects of the average Mac “fanboi,” and the aspect that rightly garners the most derision from rational people is the instant assumption that anything that Microsoft does is “evil.” Microsoft, Apple, hells even your precious fucking Google are not evil. They are corporations that have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profit.
I’m sorry that that reality gets you all weepy, but them’s the facts. And the other truth is, Asa Dotzler doesn’t give a shit about you little fucks. His job is to evangelize Firefox. Sadly he chooses to do so by posting retarded fucking screeds about Safari. Really, all I can do is pity you twits who buy into it.
@Ken Pierson
But yet you’re here, so I guess I win. Tell you what, when you get the balls to add a link to your blog I’ll play by your rules. Until then, you’re in my house, you deal with my style.
Darby,
If you think people actually know how images work or intuitively figure it out when they encounter one, or that they actually read the text next to preselected checkboxes, I suggest you get to know some people who aren’t geeks. Just because something works for you does not mean that it works for everyone, or that other people are dumb if it doesn’t work for them.
I don’t “argue” that .dmg installing is broken. I know it’s broken, from many observations of how “normal” people try to use them and expect them to behave.
I suggest you sit in on a usability test. It’s eye-opening how many things we take as granted simply don’t work for many otherwise perfectly intelligent humans.
“Again, the take home message here is that Windows users are so fucking confused by a checkbox that they can’t be trusted with the horrible responsibility of installing a browser. ”
No, the take home message is that with the checkbox selected, Software Update degrades from “software that makes your life easier because you can just click to install anything it asks for and it’ll actually Update your Software” to “software that may or may not install new crap in addition to being useful”.
That new crap has now been isolated to a new list to facilitate easier deselecting is progress, don’t get me wrong. But the angle you describe people like me as pushing is “people is stupid and can’t uncheck checkboxes”. That’s not it. People just don’t read. People have to deal with tons of text every day when they use a computer, and when annoying dialogs come up they read as little as they can to get the damn thing out of their faces. (This is why “Don’t Save”, “Cancel” and “Save” are better labels than “Yes”, “No” and “Cancel”; one set makes you read the message, one doesn’t.)
And no matter what you think of it, a fucking software updater application has definitely been tossed in the pile of “I don’t need to read this, and it is good for me if I click Install”. I’m not drawing a picture of clueless morons thinking this, we all do this every day so we’ll have time to read (or write) essays on checkbox semantics with all the time we save, unless we happen to be terribly interested in one of the particular updates which I assure you is rare.
Anyway. My point is still “when the checkbox is preselected, you actually have to give a crap about Software Update”. It’s much easier to give a crap about Software Update now since the new software package isn’t drowning in QuickTime security updates or iTunes revisions that improves stability and adds support for the new hooloovoo iPod shuffle, and maybe that’s enough. This isn’t really about Firefox developers being mad because they can’t hitch a ride for autoinstallation (don’t Firefox come preinstalled with Dell or HPs, I forget which?), and I’m guessing you know that, but it’s expedient to frame the issue as invented by the disgruntled competition, because otherwise it’s just people arguing about checkboxes.
For completeness, let’s say “people is stupid and can’t uncheck checkboxes” was an intentional and completely unembarrassing typo, meant to amplify the point that people are indeed stupid, instead of me forgetting the basics of English grammar for a split second.
@Jesper
I’m not framing the issue. I’m also not the Mozilla foundation employee who won’t drop this non-issue; and who’s spending far more time on his blog defending his comments than I am here.
You’re right though, in the end this boils down to a disagreement over a freaking checkbox in an app that no one even needs to use. I think that some people are under the impression that I have skin in this game. I don’t. I neither agree nor disagree with Asa’s position. What I have a problem with is the blogosphere’s psychotic need to whip every Apple related non-issue that it comes across into the second coming of Elvis.
my bad.. I guess it’s a common mis-statement that I picked up on, as I’ve even seen it referred to in, um, places that should know better I guess…
@Jesper:
“But the angle you describe people like me as pushing is “people is stupid and can’t uncheck checkboxes”. That’s not it. People just don’t read.”
I’m not following. Not reading is a stupid behavior. So, how does this argument that they “just don’t read” indicate that they aren’t stupid? It proves the point.
All I can say Mr. Angry Drunk…. AMEN brother!
Just wait though, there is going to be a whole new round of whining about this update.
What really rankles me is, where are all the Microsoft is evil people when Microsoft updates their computer without even giving them a warning or even a message until after the deed is done.
After I updated QuickTime on one of my Windows boxes and rebooted. I was informed that Microsoft had updated my OS without my prior knowledge or consent. So where are all the enraged blog posts about how Microsoft is evil and such? Sheesh!
Actually, to coin ‘Windows users’ as confused and not to be trusted with a checkbox is a bit of a…well very weak point.
I don’t know the software update on OS X, but if that also defaults to offering new softwarem, I bet many Mac users just click through blindly as well, installing new software without them knowing. It’s just that there are more Windows users, thus more possible complainers. I think there are more Windows novices with a weblog than Mac novices.
Plus of course, it’s Apple software update on a Windows Machine. Say you installed Office for Mac; after a few weeks the update thingy runs, and by default it also offers to install Windows Media Player and Windows Movie Maker for Mac (if those existed). If that day ever came, your, Grubers and many other Mac-bloggers head would probably explode in the process of loathing Microsoft.
Can we remember that the user in this situation is not necessarily joe computer user, but someone who at least has the bare minimum computer competency to buy a separate copy of Windows, and follow the Boot Camp instructions to install it on their Mac? And, like, they probably already use Safari on the Mac side? So maybe they can understand the checkbox?
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